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I re-read the thread, but didn't see if you overhauled and cleaned the carburetor.  If the carb has been sitting for some time, the gas turns to varnish and clogs the small inlets and passages, and the car will run like crap.  Furthermore, the gaskets will dry out and won't function well, so gas can go where it shouldn't.  

You can set the timing to something close to what it should be by using a timing light, the key in RUN, and rotating the engine by hand such that the timing light flashes.  Read the harmonic balancer for how many degrees BTDC.  Then rotate the dizzy a small amount, tighten it up, and then rotate the engine back a quarter turn on the crank and then forward again until the light flashes again.  Read the timing indicator and repeat as necessary until you get something between 6 and 12 degrees.
I did tear the carb all the way down, cleaned off the carmelized gaskets, cleaned well with B12 Chemtool, set everything where it should be. (Floats, metering jets)  and put her back together.  No Leaks on the carb, so that went well.

New, tight engine that I cannot turn by hand. (I don't think.)

kcmash

 
Here's how I set the static timing for a new engine....

Pull the #1 plug (front left cylinder)

Mark the outside of the distributor body right below the #1 plug terminal

Use a long ratchet on the harmonic balancer bolt and rotate it over until the pointer shows about 45* before TDC

Stick your finger, or someone elses, over the plug hole

Pull the engine over firmly past TDC

If you feel strong pressure, or it pops your finger off, you are on the compression stroke. If not, pull it over another 360* until you do.

Rotate the engine backwards past TDC a fair bit so you can see the timing degrees stamped on the damper.

Mark the damper at 10* BTDC ( I use a red paint pen)

Pull the engine over slowly until your mark lines up with the timing pointer.

Now pop the cap off the dizzy and see where the rotor is pointed. If it's not pointed right at your mark, rotate the body until it is and lock it down.

Put everything back together and try starting it.

Most engines will start and run perfectly fine on 10* static. I've set all my engines like this since the late 80's and have never had an issue with starting due to a timing problem. I helped with dozens of new engine starts and those that don't follow this method have almost always had an issue.

 
Latest Update:

Yesterday I tried one again for the break in run on the Cleveland.  (30 Minutes at 3000 rpm).  Since the last attempt I:

1) Got the accelerator pump on the carb squirting again.

2) Added the guages to the interior so I could watch Oil Pressure, Temp, and Charging.)

So how did it go?

1) I had a lot of problems getting it to even fire cold.  It took starting fluid to get her to start.

2)  A lot of slow stumbling and backfire. (Approx 400 RPM) and dying multiple times.

3) I messed with the timing, retarding it first(due to back fires) then getting it to start and stumble around 600 RPM.  I had no throttle response  though.  The accelerator when open a little or a lot would not increase the RPM.  BUT as soon as I let off the gas it would die.  I did hear some knocking at lower RPM at times.(Not sure what that was.  It Sounded more valve train than lower end, but I am perplexed.)

4) Another timing adjustment to advance the timing gradually and I got a start and gut her to idle at about 1200 RPM, so I jumped out of the drivers seat and turned the idle set screw on the carb up until I was around 3000 rpm.

At this point I am kinda happy and kinda mad as the radiator is relieving fluid through the cap and my temperature guage is showing nothing.  (So I realize I have a temp gage problem now too.) Oil Pressure looked good, so I was not really concerned.  Anyway, I have a spare fan on it, she is running smooth and steady, so I go get the hose to further cool the radiator.

About 4 minutes into the higher idle run, she dropped idle a little for about 5 seconds, then shut down.  I was running out of time to work on it and wanted to investigate the knocking sound, so I cranked it over to ensure it didn't spin a bearing and lock up, then let it cool and pulled the valve covers.  I found the number 7 Intake rocker loose, but the others were snug.

My next step is to try resetting all the rockers.  I have the adjustable rockers(Boss 351 style, not today's roller tappet style) and am trying the static set method. (0 degrees, 90 degrees and 375) or whatever those points are in the book.

Any suggestions out there?  I'm kinda worried I am diving down a bad road here.  I have never had this much problem getting one going before, BUT I have never had one sit so long nor tried to build with this aggressive of a cam.

I'll see if I can post videos from my phone.

kcmash

 
Latest Update:

Yesterday I tried one again for the break in run on the Cleveland.  (30 Minutes at 3000
Before you post videos - how about taking the radiator cap off and photoing the fluid in the rad?????  While we understand the overflow has a hose...................if you don't know how to fill a radiator all the hose will do is have it spit out the bottom.

Mark

P.S.  You see that all the time guys that drive cars to car shows AFTER "checking all their fluids"  (BETTER FILL THAT RADIATOR)  LOL

 
Latest Update:

Yesterday I tried one again for the break in run on the Cleveland.  (30 Minutes at 3000
Before you post videos - how about taking the radiator cap off and photoing the fluid in the rad?????  While we understand the overflow has a hose...................if you don't know how to fill a radiator all the hose will do is have it spit out the bottom.

Mark

P.S.  You see that all the time guys that drive cars to car shows AFTER "checking all their fluids"  (BETTER FILL THAT RADIATOR)  LOL
The radiator fluid is water for the startup and break-in.  No antifreeze.  The discharge out the hose had a faint rust tone to it, but not much.  Yes, I had the radiator full when I started, so i am sure that it was discharging some extra.

kcmash

 
To me, stumbling and backfiring generally indicates a carburetor problem.
Great point.  I agree that carb problems can do that.  That is why I took the carb this car last ran on, tore it down, deep cleaned and put all new gaskets in.  It is a Holly 600.  I did see gas droplets popping up out of the carb as I was trying to keep her running.

What would you suggest I try on the carb for break-in?  I think I may have all the valves set wrong based on my previous post.  I had found the last time I was trying to start that the dizzy was in 180 degrees off.  If I happend to be off like that I could have a lot out of adjustment.

Kinda looking for the valve adjustment guru to chime in about now.

kcmash

 
Cleaning a carb can have its own problems. Last fall I cleaned mine (it ran fine, just preventative maintenance) and couldn't get the car to run properly again. I cleaned and rebuilt it probably 6 times before finally giving up on it. I had previously rebuilt this carb several times. Not sure what happened, blew everything out with air, rodded everything fishing line. Which is why I now have fuel injection. lol

I'm not sure what the difference between the Boss 351 adjustable rockers and modern roller rockers but I adjusted mine to zero lash plus 1/4 turn. Here is a bit of a write up. Hope it helps.

http://www.stangtv.com/news/how-to-set-and-adjust-valve-lash-like-a-pro/

 
Cleaning a carb can have its own problems.  Last fall I cleaned mine (it ran fine, just preventative maintenance) and couldn't get the car to run properly again.  I cleaned and rebuilt it probably 6 times before finally giving up on it. I had previously rebuilt this carb several times.  Not sure what happened, blew everything out with air, rodded everything fishing line.  Which is why I now have fuel injection. lol

I'm not sure what the difference between the Boss 351 adjustable rockers and modern roller rockers but I adjusted mine to zero lash plus 1/4 turn.  Here is a bit of a write up.  Hope it helps.

http://www.stangtv.com/news/how-to-set-and-adjust-valve-lash-like-a-pro/
Good info.  That is the way I used to do it in High school.  In the Service manuals they show how you only need three unique crankshaft points to set all valves.  That is what I tried last time to try and minimize engine rotation.

I may take the longer approach they listed there.

kcmash

 
Taken from the link above:

" For Hydraulic Lifter Camshafts

When the exhaust valve just begins to open on the first cylinder in the firing order, adjust the intake valve by loosening the adjusting nut slightly while spinning the pushrod until you feel lash in the rocker arm. Tighten the adjusting nut until the slack is taken out of the rocker arm and pushrod. Lightly turn the pushrod with your fingers as you tighten the adjusting nut, and you should feel a point where there is a little resistance (this is called Zero Lash). Turn the adjusting nut ½-turn past this point, giving you optimal pre-load for the rocker arm, pushrod and lifter. According to Newman, “you should look for .030-.060 of preload in a typical hydraulic Lifter.” Follow this procedure by carefully adjusting each intake valve according to cylinder firing order.

When all of the intake valves have been set to the proper valve lash, you can adjust the exhaust valves. Utilizing the same procedure as with the intake valves, you need to turn the engine over until the intake pushrod moves all the way up and rotates just past maximum lift. Now the exhaust valve can be adjusted. When all of the intake and exhaust valves have been set with the proper lash, it is common for all the top engine builders to perform a double check by rotating the engine and checking each valve again, starting from the first cylinder in the firing order."

Biggest issue will be turning the engine over by hand with the spark plugs in. If you only have the one loose rocker, it should be pretty straightforward since you only have to do that one.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello,

I have used the Pertronix on two vehicles, they work great. Pertronix makes a higher voltage coil that is black and looks stock I also use it in my 73, no issues. "Flame Thrower II Coil" and the Ignitor II pertronix points replacement. As far as radiators I would stay away from the plastic ones. I recently replaced the radiator in my 73 and had to send two of those type back because of leaks and poor quality. I went with an all aluminum, tig welded model from NPD that I have had zero problems with. Does not look stock, but looks sharp otherwise. It is the Champion CC381 3 row part # 9005 - 1KC3 retails for $250. This fit my 73 with 351 C and an automatic. Double check for your vehicle, but really good quality. Good Luck !

 
Guys,

I have just read this post and I have a little concern about the one loose rocker. I am sure it COULD be just out of adjustment, but from a recent and very painful experience, especially with the suspicious knocking sound, it could possible that it ate both the cam and lifter. Don't get me wrong, but with all the starting issues, I just have a feeling. 

Just a suggestion, adjust as required and if it loosens up again, it may be time to pull the intake & investigate. 

Thanks, Jay

 
Happy Turkey Hangover Day!!

I really need more tech advice here.

Tried to start again today and was successful for a while.  Here is my new concern list.  Today I got about 3 to 4 minutes at 2000 rpm trying to reach my breaking objective.  I double checked TDC with a compression guage, disconnected and plugged the vacuum advance, and tightened the clamp to the power steering booster.  Since last start I did go with the Pertonix Flame Thrower III coil and module.

1) Temperature;  It seems like it is getting real hot real fast. (New Engine!)  I have straight water in the system now but I believe my cap is bad.  It starts boiling over  at the cap and discharging out the hose.  This is before she backfires a little and wants to shut down.

2)  I think a lot of my start problems are vacuum related.  If I get it to start I usually cannot get any throttle response so I cannot get the RPMs up to where I need for break in.  Any suggestions?  How can I make sure I am not getting too hot?  How do get it running long enough to break it in?

I have never had this much problem with an engine startup.  I have done probably 7 or so over the years.

Thanks!

kcmash

 
ReREADING this post (can't believe you are still dealing with this.......YOU TOO PROBABLY) !! Breaking in wouldn't be my concern BUT WHY it has gets hot, shuts down and your statement "if I can get it to start" .  (and you know this as you stated have done many motors NEVER had this problem!)

ASSUMING you do have many base line items correct (base timing/timing air flow for radiator etc) and that there are no secondary ignition or carb problems .... seeing it get hot and acts up after 15 min I would question the valve lash settings (I saw you have adjustable rockers).   A pyrometer shot at the intake ports on start up and THEN observed for temps WHEN it goes into it's fits may point you to issue.

Many of us have gone through internet assistance......giving helpful points BUT 'can't see everything"!   Had one "similar issue /shut down"   but it turned out to be the way he wired the electric choke (off of the coil)

 lifters 

You have put alot of effort into this.....CONSIDER a post with ALL YOU HAVE DONE SINCE Oct.

Mark

P.S.  Help me through the cam/adjustable rocker set up!    If you have a SOLID cam I get it and know the effects of wrong lash etc etc.   I  GUESS you can use hydraulic lifters and adjustable rockers BUT I ASSUME lash would be pretty loose in general (did read you only had ONE LOSE) Would expect it to be "one tight" (in design)

 
Yep,  I wish I were on to getting the beast on the road, but I am still here.

Valve lash.  I do have adjustable rockers with Ford Roller fulcrums. (Vintage)  and hydraulic lifters.  I set them each by spinning the pushrod with my fingers and taking all the slop out of the rod, then going another 1/2 turn on the adjust nut.  I have checked this three times and found it looks good, but I am looking for confirmation.

When trying to start, I get good spray from the accelerator pump on the Holley 600.  The float is set correct to a little high.  I do get lots of carb fires between starts.  Not sure if that is Big Cam blues, poor valve setting, or timing.  After removing and plugging the vacuum advance line, I seem to get some better response(Throttle response)  but I cannot rev it up and it won't idle.  If I gently back the throttle back she will wake up some.  No black smoke out the pipes, so I doubt I am running too rich on fuel.

I am going to buy a new brake booster hose next, as it seems loose at the intake fitting, and the clamp is not snugging it down.  I am open to more suggestions.

kcmash

 
I THINK ...you have "combined the way to set hydraulic valves and rockers with an adjustable rocker ! Trying to think through this, as it sounds like you have valves that aren't seating. Hence the hard starting, backfires and "shut down" (probably because when hot the exhaust valve heats the water, and the intake valve eventually when hot has so little lash it hangs open in all cylinders)

Mark

P.S. Call me if you want to talk 517 861 7630

 
Mark,

Thanks for the information and the good advice on the phone last night.

Today, I am a little confused again.  I pulled all the plugs and did a compression test on all 8 cylinders.

I got the following

1 - 180 

2 -170 (Didn't tighten the hose as much)

3 - 175

4 -180

5 - 180

6 - 180

7 - 180

8 - 180

So with those readings and that consistency, I believe I am closing all the valves .

OBSERVATION:  When I was removing the plugs today, they were all loose.  I merely used a socket with an extension to get a grip on the plug, but I spun them all out with my index finger and thumb on the socket extension.

-----Could this be the root of my problems?  Looks like I missed snugging the plugs somewhere in this ridiculously long restoration cycle.  

Loose plugs=low to no compression

Low to no compression = no compression heat

Low to no compression heat = poor cumbustion performance

Poor combustion performance = no throttle response

Could this be the source of my backfiring too?

Do you suggest I do anything different with my valve lash settings at this time, or just try tightening the plugs and trying again?

Are the numbers above in line with a Quench head Cleveland?

Thanks!

kcmash

 
Mark,

Thanks for the information and the good advice on the phone last night.

Today, I am a little confused again.  I pulled all the plugs and did a compression test on all 8 cylinders.

I got the following

1 - 180 

2 -170 (Didn't tighten the hose as much)

3 - 175

4 -180

5 - 180

6 - 180

7 - 180

8 - 180

So with those readings and that consistency, I believe I am closing all the valves .

OBSERVATION:  When I was removing the plugs today, they were all loose.  I merely used a socket with an extension to get a grip on the plug, but I spun them all out with my index finger and thumb on the socket extension.

-----Could this be the root of my problems?  Looks like I missed snugging the plugs somewhere in this ridiculously long restoration cycle.  

Loose plugs=low to no compression

Low to no compression = no compression heat

Low to no compression heat = poor cumbustion performance

Poor combustion performance = no throttle response

Could this be the source of my backfiring too?

Do you suggest I do anything different with my valve lash settings at this time, or just try tightening the plugs and trying again?

Are the numbers above in line with a Quench head Cleveland?

Thanks!

kcmash
Hi   (Yes great to talk to you)

So with the motor COLD (and compression readings) without oil pressure at 100% you have these figures. NOT SURE if you want to do it but..............run the engine to temperature and repeat test.  (Probably won't have to do all as it will be HOT) BUT will show if the effect of heat and oil pressure (shouldn't bleed down in a couple minutes).

You know I have been thinking the VALVE LASH is just wrong once running with heat and oil pressure to those hydraulic lifters.   If that is the case, all you will be able to do back off the rockers and try.

Mark

P.S.  Getting a "compression reading" (and these are good) don't tell you where the valves are at the timing events of the cam.   Since you adjusted for "some play" on the base of the cam you will see the valves close (especially cold) and since the compression tester HOLDS the highest reading you maybe getting that reading at SOME POINT on the rotation.   A leakdown test could show open or (NOW) burnt valves.

 
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